Author Topic: Graphics Card Upgrade  (Read 5279 times)

Offline spud

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 171
  • Karma: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Graphics Card Upgrade
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2005, 01:40:12 AM »
Just installed the Omega drivers.

Sadly they don't work that great on my machine. On Doom3 there was wide dark horizontal banding scrolling down the screen, didn't stop the crashes either.

Offline MTChandler

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 506
  • Karma: 36
  • If it wasn't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all
    • View Profile
Re: Graphics Card Upgrade
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2005, 09:36:53 AM »
Just installed the Omega drivers.

Sadly they don't work that great on my machine. On Doom3 there was wide dark horizontal banding scrolling down the screen, didn't stop the crashes either.


It is possible that there is something wrong with the graphics card - that it is defective. Have you tested the card in another machine? Do you have the latest DirectX installed and have you run dxdiag? Did dxdiag throw up any errors? If, with all the problems that you have been having and the testing that you have done, you are happy that there is something wrong with the card then change it. If it's still under warranty, get it "repaired or replaced" under SOGA.

However, if dxdiag did not throw up any errors and the card works fine in another machine, you need to look at your system as the cause of the problem. So, what can you tell us about your system? What motherboard, processor, memory, sound card etc do you have? What size PSU are you using? How many output watts does it have? What is the amperage rating on the 12V, 3.3V and 5V legs? (These last two questions can be answered by simply looking at the label on the PSU). What anti-virus and anti-spyware software are you running and have you checked your system for viruses and spyware?

You need to look at the real possibility that the problem with your existing graphic card is being caused by, for example, an under-powered PSU or a motherboard with an out of specification AGP slot or passive voltage regulator which, in combination with a under-powered PSU is starving the graphic card of power when you put a load on it. If something like this is the cause of your problem then going out any buying a new graphic card is not going to solve it. You would, as they say, be jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

From the home of the bean and the cod, where the Cabots' speak only to Lodges' and the Lodges' speak only to God

Offline spud

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 171
  • Karma: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Graphics Card Upgrade
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2005, 12:10:14 PM »
Latest directx  -  yes
Run dxdiag  -  yes [display & sound], no problems shown.
PSU is 400w, I'll ask in the shop about the amps, watts and passive regulator stuff, that's over my head.

Haven't tested the graphics card on another machine. The shop I bought the PC from have looked at it several times, without actually testing it with any different hardware [the next step I think]. Best they could come up with was a few optional updates from Windows and different sound card drivers.

One thing I've noticed is when I temporarily disable the sound card, the crashing problem almost disappears.

At least having a test drive of a new graphics card doesn't cost anything, if it solves the problem, I'll buy.

It's all turning a bit Chips!

Offline MTChandler

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 506
  • Karma: 36
  • If it wasn't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all
    • View Profile
Re: Graphics Card Upgrade
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2005, 04:05:48 PM »
The fact that is listed as a "400W" PSU is really of no help at all and doesn't tell you whether it is a good, quality PSU with sufficient power to run your system stably. Low quality power supplies - no matter what wattage figure is given on the label - are the most common causes of hardware instability in computers.

One of the questions that you need to ask is whether the "400W" rating  is "Peak" or "Max". If it is "Peak" then the specifications are, to put it kindly, being exaggerated. On a good quality 400W PSU I would expect to see 28A on the 3.3V leg, 30A on the 5v leg and 20A on the 12V leg. What you will notice is that the majority of cheap and poor quality power supplies tend to have +12V rails with 10 or 12A.(as well as being as light as a feather). No matter how many total watts the power supply may claim to have, you’re setting yourself up for instability problems if you use that kind of power supply. These stability problems can manifest themselves in, for example, graphic cards that crash a system when a load is put on them.
From the home of the bean and the cod, where the Cabots' speak only to Lodges' and the Lodges' speak only to God

Offline spud

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 171
  • Karma: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Graphics Card Upgrade
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2005, 04:11:34 PM »
I'll open up the case and have a look for those numbers.

It's not the system that crashes, just games crash out to desktop.

Offline MTChandler

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 506
  • Karma: 36
  • If it wasn't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all
    • View Profile
Re: Graphics Card Upgrade
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2005, 06:13:10 PM »
I'll open up the case and have a look for those numbers.

It's not the system that crashes, just games crash out to desktop.


What I have said about low quality power supplies and system instability, also holds true for particular components such as graphic cards'. When you open a graphic intensive progam - such as a game - the graphic card needs more power to meet the demands of the program. If the power supply is unable to provide that power then the graphic card cannot do what the program wants it to do. In this case, it may crash out of the program back to the desktop, or it may cause the system to freeze or it may cause the GPU to overheat.
From the home of the bean and the cod, where the Cabots' speak only to Lodges' and the Lodges' speak only to God

Offline spud

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 171
  • Karma: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Graphics Card Upgrade
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2005, 08:59:03 PM »

This is the PSU, hope it's not crud.

Offline MTChandler

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 506
  • Karma: 36
  • If it wasn't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all
    • View Profile
Re: Graphics Card Upgrade
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2005, 12:13:45 AM »
I have never heard of etech power supplies. However, the model # MPT-400 leads me to believe that it is a re-badged Macron PSU. Macron make "average" quality power supplies. They are ok in office systems or family computers that are used for playing some simple games, going on the internet, working with word processing and spreadsheet programs and graphics programs such as Corel Draw and Paint Shop Pro.

The first thing that you notice on the PSU is the low amperage on the 12V leg. On a computer, these days, you need a minimum of 16A on the 12V leg. It would be helpful to have a bit more, say 18A or 20A. But, with a mid-range "average" office/home computer you could get away with 16A. I am convinced that the source of your problem is the power supply. I would have the system tested with another - better quality - PSU

Under heavy processor load, your PSU will become unstable because it will constantly be running at peak (100%) whereas it should be running at max (which is at about 80% of maximum efficiency). Further, the more that I look at the other figures, the more certain I am that they are the peak ratings for the PSU. So, assuming that the figures on the label are accurate for the peak rating, you need to multiply them by .80 to get an idea of the real capability of the PSU. The figures come out too low.

Frankly, I would be looking at changing the power supply. Changing the graphic card is not, I think, going to solve your problem. To confirm what I am saying, have your system checked out with another PSU. But, don't use a generic PSU like the ones that come pre-fitted in most cases. Have it checked with a good brand-named 400W/420W PSU such as Thermaltake, Antec, Tagan, Vantec, Enermax etc.
From the home of the bean and the cod, where the Cabots' speak only to Lodges' and the Lodges' speak only to God

Offline bren

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 204
  • Karma: 11
  • I'm glad I stopped by now
    • View Profile
Re: Graphics Card Upgrade
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2005, 01:28:59 PM »
Spud, you say that when you disable the sound card, the problem all but disappears.  Is the sound card in the PCI slot nearest to the AGP slot?  If so, on some (albeit older) motherboards, conflicts can arise between the AGP slot and first PCI slot.  Try placing the sound card in the PCI slot furthest away from the graphics card and see what happens.  Not discounting the possibility of the problem lying with the PSU (a good quality one is always recommended - I use an Enermax with variable fan control for reduced noise) but htis is worth trying before you spend any money.

BTW 9800Pro's can be had for £80 including vat from some retailers, or a 9800Pro AIW for just over £90 if you like a bit more multimedia functionality.  That's *if* you still want to upgrade to one of these cards.

Offline MTChandler

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 506
  • Karma: 36
  • If it wasn't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all
    • View Profile
Re: Graphics Card Upgrade
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2005, 05:28:39 PM »
Spud, you say that when you disable the sound card, the problem all but disappears. Is the sound card in the PCI slot nearest to the AGP slot? If so, on some (albeit older) motherboards, conflicts can arise between the AGP slot and first PCI slot. Try placing the sound card in the PCI slot furthest away from the graphics card and see what happens.


Good spot, I didn't see that until I read back through the OP's posts.

Placing a sound card in the PCI slot nearest/next to the AGP slot can definitely cause problems. This is particularly true if it is a Creative sound card which have a tendency to hog the bandwidth on the PCI bus. Apart from following the suggestion from bren to move the sound card to the PCI slot furthest away from the AGP slot, you might want to make the following changes in the BIOS.

First, look for something called "Spread Spectrum" - it is usually in Advanced Chipset Configuration - and make sure that it is set to Disabled. In fact, it should be set to disabled anyway because with it enabled there is a deterioration in overall performance. It's only there to meet some CE regulation and can safely be disabled.

Second, change the setting for PCI Latency. This is usually in the Advanced Chipset Configuration menu and defaults to 32. Change it to 64.

Third, look for Delayed Transaction (again usually to be found in Advanced Chipset Configuration) and make sure that it is set to disabled.

If you are using onboard sound I would still make these changes to the BIOS settings

I still remain suspicious of your PSU, but if these suggestions solve your problem then you have saved yourself the cost of a new PSU and graphic card
From the home of the bean and the cod, where the Cabots' speak only to Lodges' and the Lodges' speak only to God

Offline spud

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 171
  • Karma: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Graphics Card Upgrade
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2005, 11:45:07 AM »
BTW 9800Pro's can be had for £80 including vat from some retailers, or a 9800Pro AIW for just over £90 if you like a bit more multimedia functionality.  That's *if* you still want to upgrade to one of these cards.


Top one seems even cheaper.



Slots from top to bottom:

AGP slot  -  Graphics Card
PCI slot  -  Blank
PCI slot  -  Blank
PCI slot  -  Sound Card
PCI slot  -  Blank
PCI slot  -  Modem


Spent several hours at the computer shop yesterday. This time dealing with someone who wanted to help. Mentioned the possibility of a faulty PSU, so tried a 500W one which had an amp rating much higher than the 400W and closer to MTChandler's figures for a quality unit. Sadly it didn't solve the problem.

Tried a different [but lesser] graphics card which didn't help, took the sound card out, switched to onboard sound, that didn't help. Seems to have been the motherboard. Now got the sound card back in with a new motherboard, fingers crossed it seems ok now.

That bios tweak makes me nervous, need to sleep on it.

Looks like I have a software issue now though, been getting "Microsoft Visual C++ Runtime Library" error "Abnormal Program Termination" just popping up mid game. Maybe I need to format and reload after having a slightly different motherboard and trying many different drivers for sound and graphics? On that note, can anyone recommend an alternative to Norton Ghost? I've got an emotional allergy to all things Symantec!

Just remembered the kx drivers I mentioned were for sound, not graphics, lol.

Thanks for all the advice,

spud


<edited for typos>
« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 12:59:57 PM by spud »

Offline andrewweb

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 81
  • Karma: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Graphics Card Upgrade
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2005, 12:18:59 AM »
Go and check out the VGA charts at www.tomshardware.com

A 6600GT will tan a 9800, and for not much more money... they seem to be very much the sweet spot for price/performance just now. I have one in an A8N-SLI deluxe with A64-3200, and it's pretty damn sweet....

Offline spud

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 171
  • Karma: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Graphics Card Upgrade
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2005, 12:43:12 AM »
Go and check out the VGA charts at www.tomshardware.com

A 6600GT will tan a 9800, and for not much more money... they seem to be very much the sweet spot for price/performance just now. I have one in an A8N-SLI deluxe with A64-3200, and it's pretty damn sweet....


Well that thickens the plot somewhat.

Still deciding whether to risk putting in another HDD with the PSU I've got.

Offline spud

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 171
  • Karma: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Graphics Card Upgrade
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2005, 01:30:01 AM »
Spoke to three different PSU manufacturers today. They all confirmed that my unit with +12V at 15A wouldn't really be sufficient for a graphics intensive system. I'm now convinced that my PSU isn't going to cope with the upgrades I have in mind. Didn't want to spend silly money on one, but have gone for a Tagan TG480-U01 480W ATX2.0, which boasts an impressive 28A on the +12V side of things. The old one has already got a good home planned.

Thanks & KP must go to MTChandler for raising awareness of this issue.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2005, 01:34:23 AM by spud »

Offline spud

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 171
  • Karma: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Graphics Card Upgrade
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2005, 12:00:05 PM »
I've had a good read of various reviews and most seem to rave about the 6600GT. It does seem to totally out perform the 9800Pro in benchmark tests, if figures are to be believed.

My local shop would probably sell them for many hundreds of pounds. So can anyone recommend somewhere competitive and reputable?

TIA,
spud